You've all wondered about it. Some have even argued about it. Now you can play it for yourself to see which side would win.
This game was developed to help cross-understanding of the two different chess systems.
One side plays with the Western Chess pieces, the other with the Chinese Chess pieces.
Due to the differences in western and eastern chess boards, both halves of the board retain the characteristics of each side. The number of squares have been increased to accommodate the slightly larger Chinese chess board. A central row on the Chinese chess side terminates at the "river" to merge into the western chess board. Units playing at the central row interface play as per normal but with a termination at the end of the row. Bishops and Queen moving along the diagonal will side-step across the central row to maintain the same colour of squares.
Because of Eastern initial advantage checkmating with catapults in first move, West starts.
All usual rules apply.
W - King - 1 step in any direction
E - 將/帥 jiàng/shuai (General/Marshal) - 1 step in any direction (restricted to within fortress) (Korean Chess Rules)
W - Queen - moves diagonally and vertically/horizontally
E - 士/仕 shì (Scholar/Official) - 1 step in any direction (restricted to within fortress) (Korean Chess Rules)
W - Bishop - moves diagonally
E - 象/相 xiàng (Elephant/Minister) - moves in 2 step diagonals (blocked by a piece along its diagonal) (cannot cross river)
W - Knight - moves in 2/1 step "L" (blocked by a piece along the long side of the "L" when in Eastern territory)
E - 馬/傌 mǎ (Horse/Cavalry) - moves in 2/1 step "L" ( blocked by a piece along the long side of "L" when in Eastern territory)
W - Castle - moves vertically/diagonally
E - 車/俥 jū (Chariot/Wagon) - moves vertically/diagonally
E - 砲/炮 pào (Catapult/Cannon) - moves vertically/horizontally, takes enemy piece by leaping over another piece
W - Pawn - 1 step forward, takes enemy piece 1 step diagonally (1 or 2 step opening move)
E - 卒/兵 zú/bīng (Private/Soldier) - 1 step forward (across the river, 1 step vertically/horizontally)
Other rules;
Western Chess Unique Rules
1. Castling
2. Pawns resurrect to any previously "taken" piece upon reaching the end of board <-- no longer applies
Chinese Chess Unique Rules
1. Horses/Cavalry are blocked by pieces straddling the long leg of L <-- only within Eastern Territory
2. Elephants/Ministers are blocked by pieces straddling the diagonal
3. Privates/Soldiers can move horizontally upon crossing the river
4. General/Marshal and Shi cannot exit the fortress except when jumping out to kill opposing King in direct line of sight
5. Elephants/Ministers cannot cross the river
2007 © Leong Kit Meng (Liang Jieming)
Ah so, this was what you were tinkering about last saturday... cool...
ReplyDeleteYup.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how balanced this game will be. Western Chess has a very powerful Queen which Chinese chess lacks. Western chess' diagonal moving bishops are also unknown in Chinese chess. On the other hand, the Chinese catapult/cannons will be hard to counter. Chinese chess also has less pawns than Western chess. Depending on strategy, that could be an advantage or disadvantage. The rules about blocking horse or elephant in Chinese chess is also a great disadvantage which the player playing western chess will not have, so is the limitation of the Chinese general and the two shi's movements restricted to just within the fortress. The Chinese side however, has 1 more row and therefore more movement room.
what if, one person play the Chinese chess on one side and the Western chess on the other... using your board, forget about the level of the players but for the beginning using the respective rules... how would it look like?
ReplyDeleteThat's what you're supposed to do. One person plays the western chess with western rules, the other plays chinese chess with chinese rules on this board.
ReplyDeletecool. might like to give it a try, but I am a lousy chess player, and I could hardly remember how to play Chinese chess. I guess Ur would be a better candidate in this matter.
ReplyDeletemust try lah.
ReplyDeleteChinese side will also have an opening advantage since it doesn't have pawns blocking it's way at the start of the game unlike the western side... that is until the queen and bishops come out. I still think the western queen and bishop would be too tough to counter because chinese chess has no counter for diagonals except for the limited capacity of the elephant. The west can position it's pawns in the usual diagonal defensive grid and the Horse cannot enter because of "horse-block". The only significant attackers would be the chariots and the catapult/cannons. If the west can knock out the catapult/cannons early, the game is pretty much won. On the other hand, the chinese soldier, if he can get across the river, has side ways movement which is very powerful. Because of the way the board has been drawn, I've also created lines of "safe" zones from the diagonal moving bishops and queen to reduce their advantage. The general's limitation within the fortress is somewhat balanced by the fact that it'll be very, very tough to check-mate for the west without catapult/cannon because of the defending Shi.
Should be interesting to try.
ok, will try to print out the board and see how to work it out.
ReplyDeleteok. Reposted the rules for your benefit. Let me know if I've missed something.
ReplyDeleteo . o Mindblowing.
ReplyDeleteMany yrs ago, came up with a similar product concept. IM me one day and lets talk. Cardinal
ReplyDeleteHey Cardinal, good to see you here... will be extending invitation to you as a contact. :)
ReplyDeleteIs this the dominion game?
ReplyDelete*slap forehead and shake head*
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something.
ReplyDeleteChess and Chinese Chess... Chess on one side, and Chinese Chess on the other side... so using the rules to play the game... should be fun. I have just downloaded the pictures and the rules. Studying them to see if there is anything else to look at.
ReplyDeleteA most difficult concept. For anyone to truly appreciate the game (albeit to even want to play) one would have to understand both games. The biggest obstacle would be getting use to western bishops changing square colors once they cross through the central section of the Eastern side. Most players counter the use of bishops just by looking at which color the threat stands on. In theory the black square bishop could become a white square bishop simply by making this move. This in itself could complicate the game.
ReplyDeleteYes
ReplyDeleteYes
and yes.
Another solution might have been to had just added an additional row at the side of the board but that'll mean the starting positions are off centre, and the western chess would have one rook with a free exit out from behind the pawns... so that wouldn't work.
Alternatively, we could kink the bishop's travel path across the central row to keep the square colours. I'll make a sample and upload it here. Wait a bit...
ReplyDeleteOk. Posted the alternative. I think it makes more sense. It'll also remove the disadvantage of "safe" zones from bishops/queen.
ReplyDeleteNo dear. Dominion is here, http://kmleong.multiply.com/photos/album/15
ReplyDeleteI think it'll be interesting.
ReplyDeleteTwo different systems, and each needing to use his own system to counter one that is so vastly different from his/her own... quite akin to a real world battle between east and west.
The west has more pawns to march along like Roman legions, with knights opening inroads for the fast striking bishops, queen and rooks. But once across the river, the chinese board creates a additional gap in the pawn lines.
The east has fewer soldiers and needs to play a more maneuverable strategy, with catapults/cannons and chariot/wagon to strike deep, whilst the elephants & shi are limited for defense. The Chinese horses/cavalry will be severely at a disadvantage compared to the knight as they can be "ma-jiao" or blocked.
Thank you, darling. Might want to consider hyperlinking instead of posting the raw url. Makes it difficult to see.
ReplyDeleteOk. New rule. Someone pointed out something painfully obvious. I totally missed it! East can checkmate in the first move with it's catapults!
ReplyDeleteI've thought about it and don't think I should modify the board any further, or manipulate the rules to suit. West will just have to deal with this Eastern initial advantage. The only thing we'll allow here is that West always gets to start first.
Ok, so here it is.
New Rule #1. West always starts.
I need to make some slight modifications to this game due to the overwhelming advantage of diagonal moving pieces which Chinese chess was never designed to deal with.
ReplyDelete1. West always moves first (or East checkmates with his catapult in 1 move)
2. Korean Chess rules will be used in the case of the Eastern General and both Shi. They can now move both horizontally and diagonally along the fortress lines.
3. The Eastern General retains the ability to jump in order to "take" the Western King but not vice-versa so the Western King needs to avoid "seeing" the Eastern General
4. The Western horse upon crossing the river into Eastern territory, will be subjected to the same blocking (horse-leg) rule as Eastern cavalry whilst in Eastern territory.
5. The Eastern cavalry upon crossing the river into Western territory, will no longer be subjected to the blocking (horse-leg) rule whist in Western territory
6. The Western pawn no longer has the ability to upgrade to another previously "taken" piece upon reaching the end as it does so within the Eastern board.
I just realised Wikipedia is actually good for something! The article on Chinese Chess there is EXCELLENT! Chess set makers should read it.
ReplyDeleteAn article on my game will be published in the German daily "Neues Deutschland" (transl.: "New Germany") this coming Saturday, 22nd Sept 2007
ReplyDeleteCool, post it here if you can,
ReplyDeleteIn German? lol. I have to wait for Dr. Gralla to mail/fax it to me.
ReplyDeleteHere's the online link to the article in the "Neues Deutschland" 22nd September 2007.
ReplyDeletewww.nd-online.de/artikel.asp?AID=116589&IDC=27
22.09.07 | Kurzweil
Elefantenspiel gegen Normalo-Schach
Ingenieur aus Singapur kombiniert Schach und XiangQi
Von René Gralla
Nun schieben sie wieder die Holzfiguren hin und her, die Herren Kramnik, Anand und Co: In Mexiko wird der Schachweltmeister ermittelt. Den Weltmeister? Tatsächlich ist das, was die acht WM-Kandidaten da veranstalten, für mindestens eine halbe Milliarde Menschen kaum die Welttitelkämpfe des Schach. Denn wenn Chinesen oder Vietnamesen von »Schach« reden, meinen sie XiangQi. Dieses »Elefanten-Spiel«, so die Übersetzung, wurde vor 2200 Jahren im Reich der Mitte erfunden und ist die Mutter aller Schachvarianten. Der wahre Weltmeister, das ist Konsens unter Asiens Traditionalisten, heißt folglich keineswegs Kramnik sondern Lu Qin. Und in dessen Terminkalender ist nicht Mexico City dick unterstrichen, sondern Chinas Kasinometropole Macao: Dort wird er versuchen, seinen Titel bei der 10. Xiang-Qi-WM vom 16. bis 23. Oktober 2007 zu verteidigen.
Schach oder XiangQi: Ein tiefer Graben spaltet die Internationale der Schachfans. Doch jetzt möchte ein Ingenieur aus Singapur das Unmögliche schaffen und beide Lager am selben Brett vereinen. Der 36-jährige Leong Kit Meng hat XiangQi und die außerhalb Chinas gepflegte Standardversion kurzerhand zusammengelegt und nennt das auf diese Weise entstandene Fusionsspiel »East versus West«.
Ein Kombi-Schach, das kulturelle Grenzen niederreißt. »Großvater hat mir XiangQi beigebracht, Westschach habe ich vom Vater gelernt«, erzählt Leong Kit Meng im ND-Interview. Er findet beide Varianten attraktiv, daher stört es ihn, dass es sich XiangQi- und Westschach-Spieler kaum begegnen. »East versus West« soll das ändern.
Die östlichen Verbände mobilisieren die typischen Einheiten des XiangQi: Wagen und Pferde, die den außerhalb Asiens bekannten Türmen und Springern entsprechen, aber auch eine Geheimwaffe, die chinesischen Kanonen. Die »West«-Armee kontert mit schnellen Diagonalläufern, die ihre östlichen Gegenstücke, die schwerfälligen Elefanten, mühelos abhängen. Zumal die Dickhäuter den Grenzfluss, der die Parteien voneinander trennt, nicht überschreiten können.
Wichtigste Stütze des westlichen Königs ist die kampfstarke Dame. Sie knockt locker die Mandarine des chinesischen Feldherrn aus, der obendrein samt Stab den zentralen Befehlsstand, euphemistisch »Palast« genannt, nicht verlassen darf und ständig vor einem Mattangriff zittern muss.
»Der Westen hat einen leichten Vorteil«, resümiert Leong Kit Meng. Trotzdem sei auch der Osten nicht chancenlos, vor allem die XiangQi-Artillerie könne hinter der feindlichen Bauernfront zuschlagen und für Verwirrung sorgen.
Abgesehen davon ist dem Hobby-Historiker und Freizeit-Archäologen, der bereits ein Buch über chinesische Belagerungstechniken veröffentlicht hat, der Erkenntnisgewinn nach einer Partie wichtiger als die Frage, welche Seite besser punktet. »East versus West« lade alle Schachfans gleich welcher Herkunft dazu ein, Vorurteile abzubauen und »schrittweise die unterschiedlichen Systeme« zu erkunden. Seine Vision: das ultimative Duell zwischen der Nr. 1 im XiangQi und dem weltbesten Westschachspieler, nach den revolutionären Regeln von »East versus West«. Das wäre »ein wahrhaft synergetisches Treffen«, schwärmt Leong Kit Meng.
Und fast so schön verrückt wie der legendäre Fight von US-Boxer Muhammad Ali 1976 gegen einen gewissen Antonio Inoki aus Japan – einen Wrestler.
Hey, can see your mug! They spelt your name in the correct order too!
ReplyDelete:P Would I have let him do it otherwise?
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for the hardcopy. Quite an interesting read just using the google-translator. He's publishing a revised article elsewhere in English. I'll wait for that too.
Cool stuff. The Austrian Gaming Magazine "SpielXpress" has published my game!
ReplyDeleteGreat! Ask them for a copy.
ReplyDeleteI'm expecting a pdf file from the publishers.
ReplyDelete... and... finally here it is! www.spielxpress.com/download/A2007/A13_81.pdf
ReplyDeleteCool, check out the main site also, they cover all kinds of games! Love the cover art. :-P And some nicely painted minis there as well.
ReplyDeleteB5 minis on sale now so if you are still keen to have your fleet now is the time. Plus the excellent exchange rate...
ReplyDelete